Teacher Retention

Join Jessica and Georgia for an episode with Jamie Bonato on teacher retention and supporting new teachers.

Resources:

https://www.teacheredspace.com/

Transcript

The Iste Edge teacher retention

Georgia Terlaje: [00:00:00] It's Time for the Edge, a podcast brought to you by its D community leaders.

Georgia Terlaje: Whether you're a teacher, an administrator, or someone that simply loves education, fasten your seatbelts because this podcast is tailor made for you. Join us as we dive into the world of education, sharing, inspiring tales of innovation, passion, and change directly from those on the front lines and the episodes to come.

Georgia Terlaje: We'll highlight the incredible dedication and creativity that drive transformation in the field of learning. Buckle up, brace yourself for an adventure. Coming up today, we're discussing new teacher retention. I'm one of your community leader hosts, Georgia Tlai. I'm a former TK five instructional coach and an educator of 36 years, and I'm here with my always favorite partner in crime, Jessica Pac.

Jessica Pack: Why thank you, Georgia. I always love spending time here together on the edge. I'm Jessica Pack, a middle school teacher and an Isti author, and on today's episode, we are going to deep dive into the topic of teacher [00:01:00] retention. The field of education is filled with passionate teachers who often go above and beyond for students, but how do we retain these impactful teachers long term?

Jessica Pack: We are joined by our fellow ISTE community leader, Jamie Beto, to discuss the issue. Jamie, welcome to the Edge. Hi, I am so excited to be here. Can you maybe introduce yourself for listeners so they get a feel for who you are and and where you are and what you do? Sure. I'm Jamie 

Jamie Bonato: and I live in Sacramento, California.

Jamie Bonato: I currently work with new teachers in a teacher training program. Before this, I was a high school math teacher for over 20 years, and I did a stint as a middle school administrator for a little bit. But now I'm living my dreams supporting new teachers and getting them ready to head into the classroom.

Jamie Bonato: I. 

Georgia Terlaje: Well, thanks so much for joining us today. We always like to kind of start out with a little insight of how like you [00:02:00] became active in its d and the CL program, kind of like your origin story with how you landed with us in this group. And then we'll deep dive into our subject. 

Jamie Bonato: That sounds good. So I came in through A SCD, so I love A SCD and have done some writing for them and attended some events.

Jamie Bonato: And then when I saw the merger I got so excited and wanted to learn more. So I, just signed up to learn more about creating the vision of how these two groups would merge together. I think it's really exciting way to support teachers from all different angles and it's, it's, it's, that's how I got involved.

Jessica Pack: So one of the things that we understand is that you have written a doctoral thesis on teacher retention. So maybe we start there and you can tell us a little bit about your work and, and what kind of got you [00:03:00] intrigued by that topic. 

Jamie Bonato: Yeah, so I was teaching high school math and then I stepped out to be a, what we call teacher on special assignment, and I was supporting K 12 teachers in mathematics in their classrooms.

Jamie Bonato: And at night I started teaching for a university and I was supporting intern teachers in math methods. I loved the job and I loved working with new teachers, and I felt rejuvenated. I loved their ideas. They gave me energy and I just loved hearing their stories and seeing their pa the passion of new teachers, and really leaning into that and decided that's what I wanna do.

Jamie Bonato: And my boss there said, well, then you need to get your doctorate. So I just found an awesome program. Decided that I wanted to study teacher retention, and I specifically looked in the state of California and I gotta meet a lot of teachers awesome human beings that had been in [00:04:00] the classroom and left within the first five years.

Jamie Bonato: And I got to interview them and get to know their stories and see what common themes there were for why teachers were leaving.

Georgia Terlaje: Jamie, what challenges do you see new teachers facing today and how can we better prepare and support them for success in the classroom? 

Jamie Bonato: Well, when I interviewed the teachers or former teachers they were so passionate and got into teaching because they really wanted to help and be part of students' lives and teaching them and helping them grow.

Jamie Bonato: And what ended up happening for most of them is they got in and they realized it was a lot bigger job than had been than they thought it was gonna be. So they, I had one interviewee tell me they felt that they had to be a counselor, a therapist, a father, an uncle a [00:05:00] nurse, and, and then also teach on top of that.

Jamie Bonato: And overall I found that the teachers didn't have a lot of support or the supports that they need. And even maybe more importantly, the students didn't have the support. So students were coming to class and needed, maybe some mental health support emotional support, and the teacher's in the classroom with over 30 students doesn't have the capability or the training or really the ability to handle something like that.

Jamie Bonato: You know, there's a, I mean, it's already a big, a tall order to be teaching content and developing students' minds, but then having all these other things on top of it. The former teachers just felt that. I was too tall of an order, so I found a lot of them ended up staying in a service field, just not in the classroom.

Jamie Bonato: So a lot of them went to nonprofit organizations where they said they felt that they could focus on supporting students, but the students also had other [00:06:00] supports too. So that's what I found. There's a lot of disillusionment. The idea that teaching is from eight to three is not not real life.

Jamie Bonato: You girls know gals know that you know, we're working a lot more hours than the kids are in, kids are there at school. And at first I thought, you know, maybe it's a matter of pay because. I definitely think teachers are underpaid. However, teachers typically know how much they're going to be paid before they enter the classroom.

Jamie Bonato: So they knew what they were going to be paid as they entered, but then they said, you know, this is way more work than what I'm getting paid for. So. It might be true if we were really worked eight to three and just were just straight up teachers. It might be a fair compensation. But for the extra work and time that we put in a lot of the teachers just just thought that it was just too much and not sustainable for their lives.[00:07:00] 

Jessica Pack: Did teachers talk to you at all about sort of that. SECONDHAND transferred trauma of dealing with so many students, with so many real big challenges in their lives. Like was that a factor for them as well? Just their own mental health? 

Jamie Bonato: Yes. Thank you for bringing that up. It's, it's real, right? It's, being around students with trauma, you take it on, especially because as a teacher, a lot of times you're caring, you're there because you wanna help. And it's the secondary trauma. So you may not have experienced it, but supporting a student that's going through a traumatic experience or has been through trauma it can really hit weigh heavily on you, which is again, where when you're a teacher.

Jamie Bonato: If the students don't have support for what they're going through, then it falls a lot on the teacher to support the student, which is another heavy load. [00:08:00] And again, teachers are caring people, they want to help, but it ends up becoming, they're just giving and giving. And I think a lot especially since COVID, I mean, this is a really big theme is coming back into the classroom for a lot of teachers.

Jamie Bonato: It's. It's been a challenge. It's been a challenge for students. It's been a challenge for teachers, and I hope I'm not rambling too much or going off topic. But I hear a lot about self-care for teachers. I. And I was just thinking about it and I really, I, you know, take care of yourself, take care of yourself, but it seems superficial how we tell people to take care of themselves.

Jamie Bonato: It self-care is more than bubble baths and taking a walk. It's setting boundaries and I think that that's what's really hard for teachers in the system that we work in. Setting those boundaries because you can't just be a teacher. You have to be everything to your students. And you want to be everything to your students.

Jamie Bonato: [00:09:00] So I think that our system is could use more support both for students and for teachers. 

Jessica Pack: It seems too like in the post pandemic landscape. Even families and students have had maybe an adjustment to understanding boundaries of teachers' personal lives and time. I just around campus hear a lot from other colleagues and my, my own experiences of like families thinking that we're sort of on call 24 7 or if you provide, you know, a, a way of after hours contact on one occasion, that means it's good on all occasions.

Jessica Pack: Is that. Also part of it is like reframing the way maybe communities see the job of a teacher. Oh, I think that's 

Jamie Bonato: huge. There's no, and sometimes it feels like there's no boundary and I think in some ways technology is awesome and in some ways we're so connected that it feel, and we [00:10:00] want an immediate response and students.

Jamie Bonato: And parents perhaps are so used to getting an immediate response through social media hopping on whatever, whatever platform and they want and find something out, they get a response immediately. I. And maybe not being aware that teachers need a need some time to, and so I really encourage teachers to set clear boundaries when they'll respond to emails.

Jamie Bonato: And it's hard because you don't wanna come to work in the morning with 30 emails in your box. You have to prep on top of that and when am I gonna get all this done? And now I sound, I sound so old, but you have your email on your phone, right? And so you're standing in line at the grocery store, you take your phone out and you can check your email.

Jamie Bonato: So it's really like work is following you everywhere if you let it I was talking to a teacher. Over winter break and they said to me, oh, I got an email from a parent [00:11:00] last week, but I'm gonna wait to respond until I get back from break. And it was to me very refreshing.

Jamie Bonato: And a little shocking. I was thinking to myself like, oh my gosh, I could never wait. But then I thought maybe I need to rethink this and, and wait a little bit. But it's the pressure of always being there and always being on, and there's so many new ways to connect with people. There's, you guys know, you're the techies, the, the texting apps that you can do.

Jamie Bonato: I remember when I came back from COVID, I would have evening office hours because a lot of my students would have sports after school and couldn't. I'd come to like an office hour or come in and get help. I taught high school. So I would open up and say, okay, so between the hours and five and six, if you text me, I'll text you back and or send a picture, not my personal text, but you know, like through the app, if you send a question, I'll respond [00:12:00] through these hours.

Jamie Bonato: And, and it was, it was a little draining because sometimes no one would text and so I would just sit there and wait. And then some nights it would just, you know, I'd be inundated with things. And I think I had to stop and kind of make a boundary there also about my time and reframing that.

Georgia Terlaje: Well, I think you really hit on that boundary issue that, and. And you also hit on, on this work is really, it's the. It's a, it's a calling because it is so all consuming and you will have the life sucked out of you if you don't create those boundaries, which made me think as, as the veteran of this group for, you know, teaching since dinosaurs roam the Earth.

Georgia Terlaje: I was wondering if you're aware of, or you're involved in anything, of having veteran teachers help mentor the new teachers? Like even happy hour conversations? 'cause this would be a great place [00:13:00] for the newer teachers to kind of. Ask questions and vent and the older teachers can sort of give their perspective and help.

Georgia Terlaje: 'cause I know when I first started teaching, I was thrown like a feral animal into the wild, and Yes. Did not really have a whole lot of support. So, I mean, have you heard of anything like that and, and what advice do you have for veteran teachers to be a support system? 

Jamie Bonato: Oh, so I have a lot to say about this.

Jamie Bonato: But I don't, I could keep you here for days. I love the idea of veterans mentoring new teachers. I. I just wanna say that I respect teachers and I respect their time. And I also think that veteran teachers need to be recognized and compensated for additional time that they spend. And I also think, I mean, I have ideas of what new teachers, you know, should have extra lease time and in an ideal world, and we'd have time in the day for veterans and men and new teachers to, to collaborate and work together.

Jamie Bonato: But I first just wanna say, 'cause this is [00:14:00] one of my little platforms that if something's done outside of the school day, I think that everyone involved in, in education, teachers should be compensated for their time or in some way. You know, not even with just money, but in other ways. Like maybe other duties are as can be, as can be swapped out.

Jamie Bonato: I love the idea of veterans and actually I train mentor teachers also and have been a mentor teacher. And I think that when I ask mentor teachers. For feedback. They all say that it's such a great experience 'cause it helps them feel rejuvenated themselves. They get new perspective. A lot of times new teachers come in, they're excited.

Jamie Bonato: Veteran teachers, I, I don't wanna generalize, but sometimes feel a little beaten down and you know, like, I've been doing this for 20 years. I know what I'm doing. Not gonna change. And then a new teacher comes in and gives a new idea that they are gonna try in some [00:15:00] energy. And so I think it's, it's really can benefit everyone.

Jamie Bonato: The new teacher, learning from a veteran and a veteran learning from a new teacher. But those that needs to be set up and by the school and by the system. And those relationships need to be Kate like, like. Given, given an environment where they can grow. And I love your idea about the, like drop in in office hours for new teachers.

Jamie Bonato: A couple years ago I did an experiment and I had a new teacher support group and it was anonymous and it was like, what happens in the group stays in the group. And my another colleague of mine, Kristen Miller and I, we hosted it and it was, I forget what day of the week it was one afternoon for an hour.

Jamie Bonato: It was purely drop in and we advertised and we had people from all over the world, like other countries were coming in to this drop in, new teacher support. And it was mostly [00:16:00] just to talk, like talk it out. It was, we started with an agenda and then we didn't have an agenda and people would come and just say, this happened this week.

Jamie Bonato: Any ideas? And keeping students' names anonymous and locations anonymous, but it was a great place for people to come together and new teachers to. They said they just felt like, oh, I'm not the only one going through this. And being able to brainstorm and get support from some veteran teachers but also from each other.

Jamie Bonato: And I think some friendships. We're cultivated in there and have continued. We don't have the support group anymore, but I know that some of the members connected outside of the group and are still friends. So that's a win. 

Georgia Terlaje: Well, and, and I think that's, I mean, for veteran teachers too, the benefit is because I like elementary school, we can get very siloed.

Georgia Terlaje: I'm sure it's the same and secondary. And having that new infusion of energy, a different set of eyes and that sense of, oh, that's [00:17:00] happening to you too. That's not just in my little world where. You know, this, this, and this is happening. So I think it'd be really beneficial. So hopefully people listen to this podcast.

Georgia Terlaje: Maybe some people will get some ideas of like what they could do in their district or their site to really help the new people coming on board so they don't feel so isolated. 

Jamie Bonato: Yes, I, I totally agree. And again. People that I've been teaching for a while can learn so much. Like, I feel like I am ancient when it comes to technology and having like, I don't know.

Jamie Bonato: This is so, like I, I was around when we had overhead projectors and so oh, me too 

Georgia Terlaje: girl. I was around before the internet was invented. So I think I have both of you beat. 

Jamie Bonato: Yeah, so the overhead projector in your, the side of your hand was all like markered up by the end of the day. And and so it's been so interesting to see all the changes come through.

Jamie Bonato: And looking over the past maybe like [00:18:00] 25 years and how things have come through the school system, I feel that we're at this really cool. Stage, and this is where I think that this organization can really step in and help all teachers, but also new teachers is technology. When I'm looking back, like early two thousands almost seemed like an add-on.

Jamie Bonato: It was like, you're doing this. Oh, but you could do it this way. It's the same amount of work, maybe more. 'cause now you have to set everything up and you know. But I feel like with the new technology and ai, that we can streamline some of our work. I mean, not all of it because we're in a human field workforce and we need that human connection.

Jamie Bonato: But I feel like there's so many things that can be streamlined now. And take that extra I. Weight and burden and tasks off of a teacher's plate so that they can focus on the actual teaching and building relationships and making connections with kids. And so I think that we're in this really awesome time, [00:19:00] which is also why I love this organization to see what it can bring and share with everybody.

Jessica Pack: Well, and all three of us are in the state of California, but teacher retention has really been an issue all over the country. Yeah. So what kinds of innovations or shifts do you foresee in teacher credentialing programs to kind of better prepare educators for the challenges that they'll face when they get in the classroom?

Jamie Bonato: Thanks. So I was thinking about this as I was getting ready to talk to you guys and I have like two ideas I have like in a dream world, like if this, if we could have the dream I would say that new teachers have a. Not a reduced workload, but let's face it, when you look at the new teachers, what classes are they assigned?

Jamie Bonato: Right now, they're assigned the hardest to teach classes. Right? Like maybe their students have, you know, they're [00:20:00] putting all beha, like a lot of behavior problems in, in that class, or it's the hardest content to teach. It's, you know, learn. They have lots of learners that need extra. Support. That's the classrooms that we give our new teachers.

Jamie Bonato: And so I think that's number one. We need, that's a realistic thing that we can look at and school administrators can see how classes rooms are distributed. And kind of, I say share the wealth with everybody. So I mean, veteran teachers have the skills to step in and do that. Ideally, I would love new teachers to be able to observe other teachers more and have like release time.

Jamie Bonato: That would be in my ideal world, is they have extra release time to go and watch other teachers. Of course. Ideally, I would say pay more money to teachers and improve work conditions. I went to a conference yesterday and they were talking about the working conditions of teachers like environmental.

Jamie Bonato: And ideally improving that. But what I think we can [00:21:00] do is we can look at the scheduling, like I said, like workloads how we distribute students. I know coming from secondary. The secondary worlds. The newer teachers were often given the classes that did have more behavior problems. And the more veteran you were, the like higher level class you got.

Jamie Bonato: And it was always like whoever's been here the longest gets, you know, the highest level class. And I, in some ways I think it should be flipped because a lot of times the most, the heart for me, the hardest. As a teacher, the hardest classes to teach were students that were not excited to learn.

Jamie Bonato: And that's a lot of times, like the higher level students, once they get up there, they're like excited to learn. And so that's like not as hard to teach as, you know, reluctant learners. And so I almost think it should be flipped. But it's a lot harder and takes a lot more energy and time. I think administrators can do things to support new teachers.

Jamie Bonato: I know especially I'm [00:22:00] in, I'm in California, so I'm mindful of teacher unions for people that work in schools that have a teacher union, but adjunct duties, like extra supervision. That might be something that we consider with our new teachers. Maybe that's time that they get to go talk to another teacher or that might be time that they're meeting with their mentor.

Jamie Bonato: So I think there are things that we can do while we're li with the system that we're living in. But it's just tough. It's tough. I think it, there's some systemic changes that need to happen. I. 

Jessica Pack: You know, what you're talking about in describing sort of reminds me of universal design mm-hmm.

Jessica Pack: Because that's a wheelhouse Georgia and I do a lot of work in, and it's, it's. I think it's intriguing to think about a universally designed learning experience for the teacher as well in terms of just being able to have what they need when they need it. Like what you're talking about with extra supervision duties.

Jessica Pack: It impacts me far less to go supervise in the common quad area in the morning because I've been [00:23:00] teaching 20 years the same subject as opposed to my counterpart where it's her second year. So yes, that a hundred percent makes sense to me to kind of level the playing field a bit where we can. Yeah, and 

Jamie Bonato: not giving teachers, I mean, if they want to do extra duties like coach different sports or lead different clubs I know a lot of times that's a need in schools.

Jamie Bonato: Like kids wanna start a club. We need a teacher to supervise the club. I mean, I'm not gonna say don't tell a new teacher you can't do that, but don't put the pressure on them that that's an expectation. There's something else I wanted to share with you guys that, 'cause I want your, I wanna see your feed, I want, I want your input on this.

Jamie Bonato: So I've been thinking a lot about generations, but it's hard for me to delineate like which generation is which. But the new workforce coming in what they value in a job is teamwork. So time to work in teams and collaborate. They want flexible schedules [00:24:00] and they want recognition and promotion. I.

Jamie Bonato: And when I think about a teacher's job, those are things that we often don't get. So how can we in incorporate more collaboration and teamwork? You know, oftentimes you go to your classroom, you close the door, you do your thing all day. You're alone with children. It's definitely not a flex flexible schedule for the most part if you're working in a traditional school.

Jamie Bonato: So how might, I don't know how we might change that. These are just things that I am pondering and then for recognition I. A lot of times, I mean, there aren't really teacher promotions, there's more like you just move along and you all move along at the same speed. So just, I'm just thinking that through and right now, and that's, that's kind of what I'm pondering in my mind how we can not, not adapt with the current education environment, but maybe make it more conducive to what people are wanting in as they come into a profession.

Georgia Terlaje: Well, I, I think you hit the [00:25:00] nail on the head. I mean, my observation, the last, you know, 20 years I taught as far as collaboration is, a lot of times it was forced on teachers mm-hmm. For like district initiatives. And so teachers would get a bad taste in their mouth about forced collaboration. And then they seemed a lot of teachers didn't want other people coming in their classrooms and that would freak them out.

Georgia Terlaje: And you know, I just think we gotta find a way I. Where people can be open and, and get past that. You know, nobody's trying to judge you or, or hopefully not. You know, like I, I think as an administrator you have to kind of build that family and, you know, we're all in this together and we all can learn from each other.

Georgia Terlaje: But I know that collaboration piece is tough because just so many sites don't have that. Teamwork mentality. Mm-hmm. So to speak. Mm-hmm. It's like forced teamwork and Yes. Nobody, nobody [00:26:00] likes that. 

Jamie Bonato: Yeah. I agree. I remember being forced to collaborate in other situations where I. I've seen like choose your own adventure collaboration.

Jamie Bonato: Right? Which I thought was really cool. It was like, if you, if you wanna work on this, head over here, if you wanna work on this, head over here. If you have another idea of what you wanna work on, let us know and so we can get a group for you. I love, I love that idea. But I also know that things have to be aligned to, you know, school goals and there's all that, that also behind the scenes. But I think that it can be done and I think that's that collaboration can work. But you're right, Georgia, I think it has to be kind of like wanted and something that a teacher's gonna find valuable. I. 

Georgia Terlaje: And I think back to what Jessica had said about, you know, we need this like U Universal design for learning system with teachers.

Georgia Terlaje: And I know like district initiatives have to get through, but there [00:27:00] also needs to be the balance of what do teachers really need? And that always seems to get pushed by the wayside. Then teachers don't get what they need. They just get everything thrown at them. And I don't know how to change that, but it'd be great if we could so that we could all get what we need on this journey and not be frustrated.

Jamie Bonato: Yes. And now Jessica does have me thinking about UDL for teachers. 

Jessica Pack: Well, thank you so much for stopping by the edge. Yeah. We have really appreciated this conversation and I think we're going to have to accept sort of a non closure here at the end because there's so much more to really think about as, as maybe people start to have conversations about teacher retention in their environments.

Jessica Pack: What are some maybe closing thoughts that you would leave them with? Well, I think that's, 

Jamie Bonato: The, besides being a systemic change, I think we need like kind of some system support and [00:28:00] changes, but for new teachers, if you are a new teacher reach out to other teachers. Don't be, you know. Try not to be intimidated.

Jamie Bonato: Find a buddy, find someone that you feel that you can go to for support. And teachers that have been around a while. Reach out to these new teachers, see what they need. Anticipate what they might need. They just might need you to come by and say hi. They just, they might need you to show them how to work the copy machine.

Jamie Bonato: Just be somewhere, someone that's there for them. And so that's what I would say. I think it's, right now it kind of starts since systemically it's, it's hard to make a change, but start at your site so everyone can play a role and everyone can learn from each other. And I think that there's value in working together.

Jamie Bonato: And the mentoring, I think is the number one place to start. 

Jessica Pack: Absolutely. Jamie, thank you again for being here today. We really appreciate your time and your message. Before we let you go, where can listeners connect with [00:29:00] you if they would like to continue the conversation? I. 

Jamie Bonato: Oh, I would love to talk to you guys.

Jamie Bonato: My website is teacher ed space.com. I can also be found@jamiebeto.com, but that's kind of hard to spell. So either place just look me up and I'm happy to help. So, reach out. I'd love to hear what other people think, and I'd love to further explore the UDL, the UDL for teacher's idea. This is awesome.

Georgia Terlaje: And I'm Georgia Ulai. And you can find me at Georgia Ulai on Blue Sky and both of us at storytelling saves the world.com. 

Jessica Pack: Well, that wraps up this episode of the Edge Podcast. We hope you had a great time. My name is Jessica, and you can find me at Pac Woman 2 0 8 on X Threads and Instagram, on behalf of everyone at ISTE the Edge Podcast, remember to keep exploring your passion, fostering [00:30:00] your creativity, and continue taking risks, all things that can bring you to the edge.